In "The Boob" (also known to us Algy fans as "The-Story-In-Which-The-Wonderful-Algy-Lacey-First-Appears"), Biggles refers to Algy's mother as an "elderly female relative" of his.
I doubt that even Biggles, young as he was, would have referred to someone in their forties as "elderly'. It's more likely, to me, that someone would have to be fifty or most likely sixty before he would think of them as elderly. Also, it would be unlikely for a woman in her forties to strike terror into Biggles' teenage heart the way she seems to have done in "The Boob". Therefore, I think it quite possible that at the time of Algy's appearance in the series, she was around sixty.
This raises some interesting questions, since if his mother was sixty and Algy was at the time sixteen/seventeen/eighteen, that would mean that his mother was quite old when she had him--in her thirties or forties. This would make him unlikely to be the first child, a fact consistent with his "Honorable" title (as opposed to "Earl", for example).
But if that's the case, what happened to Algy's older brother(s)? Why was he not entrusted to his (their) care? (For that matter, why was Biggles not entrusted to their care?) I suppose it's possible that they were no longer on the scene when Algy joined up (but in that case, wouldn't Algy inherit the title? Not sure how that would work--I'm assuming that said brothers, being so young, would not have any offspring.) Again, it's also possible that Algy's brothers decided not to be pilots (and if so, was one entrusted to the care of Cousin Charles? Incidentally also known as Biggles? Just as a side issue, how on earth did they distinguish between James Biggles and Charles Biggles in the Lacey household?)
And the biggest question of all, did Algy have any sisters? And if so, what happened to them?
And another thing...if Algy's mother was in her sixties during WWI, how old would Algy's father have been? And how much older would he have been during the "Flies Again" era when Algy complains that his father will not be happy that his name is in the papers?
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What a lot of lovely questions :)
ReplyDeleteYou have to remember that the only time Biggles saw Algy, they were both quite young and maybe Algy's mother was then in her late forties or very early 50s, having had Algy in her late 20s or early 30s. If she was rather severe, she might have seemed elderly to the teenage Biggles. I assume he was mid-teens because he came to England and started school when he was fourteen and a half, and joined up when he was nearly seventeen.
By the time Algy joined up his mother was, maybe, in her mid 50s. If his father was a similar age, by the time they got to the 'Flies Again' era they both would still only be in their 70s, which wasn't particularly old for members of the upper classes at that time. But old enough for his father to be irascible no doubt! He was probably forever saying what was the younger generation coming to...
I feel sure Algy had an older brother (at least one) who inherited the title and looked after the estate, else Algy would have had to go home and do it. If Algy had any sisters, and it seems quite likely he did, they'd all be married off to somebody rich or aristocratic. WEJ would know they'd not be good material for children's adventure stories !!!
Possibly Algy's mother, with her obvious ability to pull strings where it mattered, arranged for the older brother to spend his war somewhere safe and well away from the front line. That's how I always imagined it.
In the Lacey household, you can be sure that the parents wouldn't use nicknames. They'd be Algernon, Charles and James. The 'Biggles' tag was for school and later, amongst contemporaries.
When you say "quite young", SA...it would only have been three years or so before Biggles joined up, if he was fourteen at the time (unless of course he met Algy when he was younger, on a trip back from India or something of the sort). I wonder if it was on that trip that Biggles took the photo that Algy later recognized him from? (But if so, wouldn't Algy remember Biggles? Or was he too busy being a "little horror"?)
ReplyDeleteI would agree that Algy had at least one older brother (and good thing too, for the Lacey estate). I suppose it is possible that Algy was in charge of an estate, but simply left it up to some faithful manservant, and only bothered to go back and check the books once or twice a year (all those times Biggles supposedly left him behind to answer the phone).
The reason I asked about the James vs Charles name issue is that the first time Algy met Biggles he called him Biggles straight away, adding that he "knew him from the photo at home", meaning that he didn't know Biggles as James (otherwise he would have said, "Are you James?"), but, given that from Biggles Goes to School we know that Charles was also often referred to as "Biggles", it seems somewhat strange.
And I rather suppose that Biggles' dad was often called Biggles as well...even more confusing!
You are right Soppy, and it does seem quite strange that Algy did't call him James, now you draw my attention to it, because I am sure his aunt and uncle would have called him James. I don't have an answer to that in my mind. Unless it is what Algy's elder brother called him. He might have called him Biggles minor perhaps (as per what Biggles' headmaster said). And of course, Algy having been to prep and public school would expect to use nicknames. Maybe Charles went to the Lacey household in his school holidays sometimes, and was called Biggles by Algy and his brother.
ReplyDeleteBut it could just have been a typical WEJ slip!!! At that stage of the war, Biggles' brother was still alive and presumably called Biggles…
I always assumed the 'photo at home' was either a Bigglesworth family photo - you know, the sort of thing people used to send to relatives at Christmas, or a photo of 'James' at 10' or 12 or something - the sort of photos families exchanged to say things like this is our youngest boy on his 10th birthday, or whatever.
I also agree with you about the timing. There is a strong impression, both from 'Biggles the Boy' and 'Biggles Goes to School', although this is never stated explicitly, that when Biggles leaves India to go to school in England, it is the first time he has left home. So if he HAD met Algy at a much earlier age, it would have had to have been a Lacey trip to India - in which case Biggles could have been much younger. Probably Algy's mother might appear elderly to a, say, ten year-old, especially if he didn't have his own mother around for comparison, and didn't see many white females in the remote area he appeared to live in - no schools, no other white boys (nor presumably girls).
Mind you, as WEJ wrote 'Biggles the Boy' and 'Biggles Goes to School' so many many years after he wrote 'The Boob', I expect he'd long forgotten what he'd written about the domestic details we are so keen to know about...
If Algy had had an agent looking after the estate (which is how it would have been done) I'm sure we'd have known something. WEJ does very occasionally give us a few Bertie clues, but never Algy clues, so my guess it was being run by the family, and the older brother did the conventional thing and got married and had children to carry on the line...
I always presumed (with absolutely no evidence to back it up of course)that 1. Algy had an older brother - a serious, stuffed shirt sort of chap who had very little in common with his adventurous, happy-go-lucky sibling, and who totally disapproved of Algy and cousin Biggles and their wild, round the world adventures. He probably only spoke to Algy when he absolutely had to - at Christmas and family gatherings, and then only with a disapproving glint in his eye and a few choice comments about Algy's choice of career. He probably had flat feet or something (aka Private Pike from Dad's army)and so was exempt from active service and remained at home to help with the estate.
ReplyDelete2. That when Algy arrived at 266 and said "You're Biggles aren't you? I recognized you from the photo at home" That by that time Biggles was already quite well known for his feats. His name had appeared in several newspaper reports - maybe even his nickname was used - to sort of boost morale-
'Another successful raid by Biggles' etc. I bet Algy at home had scoured the papers daily and devoured any mention of his cousin.In his own head he already thought of him with no other name but Biggles.
The photo may have been quite recent. Many people when they first got their uniforms had formal photographs taken wearing them and sent copies to family members. Biggles father may even have sent it to Algy's mother himself, and being patriotic and proud she would have framed it and displayed it on the top of the piano with the rest of the family photos.
3. That when Biggles called her 'an elderly female relative' he was in a VERY waspish mood. He had just been bombarded with a list of babysitting duties for a cousin he couldn't stand. He wasn't in the mood to say anything complimentary about her - and when you're only a teenager anyone over twenty-five seems ancient!I always took the comment to be along the lines of calling her an 'old bag' or 'old trout'. She was probably quite sprightly and glam and only seemed old to Biggles because of her disapproving, meddling attitude.
You're right, SA, WEJ had a very annoying habit of forgetting or messing up the details. You'd think he would have hired a secretary (or avid fan) to draw some charts up for him--I bet he got tons of letters, even back in the day, complaining that something didn't gel up with something in some other book!
ReplyDeleteI somehow don't see the Lacey family going out to India on some sort of family outing. It would have been expensive for one, and probably a complicated process as well. Also, since Biggles' mother wasn't around, they wouldn't really have anyone to see (other than Biggles) when they did get there! Not really worth the trip, so to speak. So I also think that it must have been after Biggles got back that the infamous photo was taken. I also agree with JJ that it could have been a uniform photo (although somewhat morbid of people to send those round, considering how so many of the subjects never made it back...). Wonder if Biggles' Dad got one of Algy when Algy joined up? (If he did. I WANT IT!)
The name thing is starting to irk me now. Schoolboys did often call each other by their surnames, but not relations! Even if Algy did read up about Biggles in the papers (an eerie foreshadowing of what Ginger would do in later years), he would still not be likely to think of him as "Cousin Biggles" over "Cousin James", especially if his parents always called him James as well, in the same way that Biggles refers to him as Algernon and not Lacey. it's just a very odd dynamic--even more so given that everyone in Biggles' family (possibly including Dickpa) were probably all known as Biggles at one time or another.
I suppose WEJ got so used to thinking of him as Biggles that he simply didn't notice when it would have been weird for other people to do the same!
I think when Biggles was calling his aunt an "elderly" female relative, he was stating more of a fact rather than an insult. Later on he does refer to her as an "old girl" which I think IS him being disparaging. Don't think Algy would have been pleased to hear what Biggles said about his mother!
t's just struck me that all of these comments are things that have happened only inside our heads....
ReplyDeleteAre we insane? Or just on the brink of it?
Maybe we need to find some sort of Algy self-help group for people who have overdosed on Biggles' books... ;)
ReplyDeleteBut then Algy himself is described as being slightly crazy - birds of a feather and all that....
Maybe we are in good company :D
I mostly agree with JJ on this. Biggles would have called Algy's mother an EFR because she would have seemed old to him. He probably had not seen her since he was a child, and still had that perception of her (and her behaviour certainly fitted in with that), whatever age she was.
ReplyDeleteShe would have pulled strings to ensure the eldest son was kept on the land (or whatever).
Algy would have read about Biggles in the papers and the nickname evidently stuck to our Biggles even though there were others of the same surname. I think that "Biggles" in the newspapers would be how Algy thought of him, rather than "James" whom he had hardly ever seen.
An Algy self-help group? What do you think this is?
ReplyDeleteAre we to assume then that Algy's mother was older than Biggles' father at the time when he met her (whenever that meeting took place)? I doubt that he would have thought she was "elderly" otherwise. Of course, it could just have been that she was very overbearing.
Are we sure that Biggles really did get so many mentions in the papers for people to read about? :P
Are you casting nasturtiums at Biggles' fame?!!!
ReplyDeleteThere are several mentions of Biggles name appearing in news reports in the WW1 books. In 'On Leave' the nasty Frazer even says,
"He's not THE Bigglesworth - the fellow we read about in the papers - the flyer - is he?"
And we know Algy reads lots of newspapers. W.E.J. tells us so. So you can bet he, Algy, was busy back home or at his F.T.S. reading those reports and storing away all the gems in his head.
Wonder if Algy ever appeared in any news reports after he joined 266, and if so what did the papers call him?
Soppy said: " An Algy self-help group? What do you think this is?"
ReplyDeleteThe answer to that, Soppy, is that this is an Algy AND Biggles self-help group :) )
Is it likely that in a newspaper report, if Biggles were mentioned, that his nickname would be used? The nasty Fraser did after all use his full name. I think the press would refer to people formally - it was, after all, an age in which people were very formal. Even in 266, on the midst of war, Biggles would refer to Algy as Mr Lacey when speaking to non-commissioned officers, fitters, and the like.
ReplyDeleteAlso the army strongly discouraged the use of the term 'ace' and publicity about the most successful fliers because they thought it was bad for the morale of the other fliers. Unlike the Germans who promoted their aces - and did the French also?
Algy might have heard of Biggles (by his nickname) when learning to fly, but I think it was WEJ being a mite careless and just doing his usual 'Biggles the hero' thing!
I also think it is unlikely that Biggles' father would have sent the Lacey family a photo of Biggles in his new uniform. The reason why I think this is that WEJ tells us, when Biggles left India to go to school, Biggles was never to see his father again. I always imagined this was because Bigglesworth senior went out to France like his elder son and died early on, maybe even while Biggles was still at school.
There was probably nobody around to stop Biggles joining up when he was way too young - and I don't see him sending off photos of himself to his father or any other relations. More likely he'd be keeping a low profile with the family at the start!!! Could families get underage boys removed from the army? I rather think that at some period in the war they could - but maybe that was early on, before the losses were so huge. I still think it would have been either a family photo or a school photo and probably Biggles hadn't changed all that much. He was still a boy in 1917 when Algy went out.
Hmm - lots of food for thought....
ReplyDeleteInteresting point about Biggles joining up under age and the whole probablity/improbablity of him posing for a formal photo at that time. Hadn't considered that. *Note to self: 'must think before I write'* :(
Lots of things that people post make me stop and think again. I think that is what makes it all so interesting :)
ReplyDeleteIndeed, SA :)
ReplyDeleteAlthough it's slightly irrelevant - though sort of on the same topic - I was wondering what everyone else thinks about Raymond's age..? He must have been pretty old by the time the stories ended!
You are right - very old! He might have been 10 years older then Biggles and Algy? But of course if he was sound in mind… he didn't have to do anything energetic :)
ReplyDeleteRaymond really is something of an enigma isn't he? Considering he features so prominently throughout the series!Do we know what he looks like? Is he tall, short, slim, portly? We are told he has a wife, but that is about all, and only that in one of the later books. Sometimes I even wonder if he is always entirely honest with Biggles about his missions. There have been a couple of occasions when he looks shifty when Biggles pulls him up short about a point.
ReplyDeleteWhen I first encountered his character in 'flies east' I presumed he must be considerably older than Biggles and Algy, mostly because of his position of authority, but then considering the times, and the fact that Major Mullen was only twenty-five, I am not so sure anymore. Bit hard to imagine Raymond as young and dashing though. I always imagine him constantly buried behind mounds of paperwork, tearing his hair out over some of Biggles 'methods' on his secret missions. :D
I've just finished the short stories in 'Pirate treasure' and in one of them Raymond complains that one of these days it won't come right and his 30 years of conscientious work will be forgotten in the public's howl for somebody's blood. That book was published in 1954. You'd think it would have been more than 30 years really as he was around in 1917, in Biggles' early days with the RFC.
ReplyDeleteAm I imagining it, or did WEJ once describe Raymond's features as austere? I always imagine him as fairly tall and thin.
Yes indeed :) I can imagine him as rather tall... with grey hair. That's just my interpretation, but I agree with you JJ - he always seemed much older than Biggles, even in 'Flies East'. And yes, SA, I think the only energetic think he's known to have done is hold Biggles back from Marie's bombed house!!
ReplyDeleteI have this vague memory of Raymond being described as having austere features - or did I make that up? Or read it in a fanfic? I always imagine him as quite tall and thin. And serious.
ReplyDeleteI think in the first air police book when Raymond is talking to Biggles about setting up the air police he says "My flying days are over, so..." and when I read that I wondered, "When did your flying days ever BEGIN???"
ReplyDeleteI agree that I can't see him as someone young and 25-ish, although he must have been when Biggles first met him.
And that puts me in mind of dear Erich. In 'Flies East' he already has many years of experience behind him, so is it safe to assume hess about 20 years older than Biggles? If so, then he must be really getting on in 'Looks back' but he still managed to climb some ivy.
ReplyDeleteWonder what his work-out routine is.... I could do with pinching a few of his tips. :D
ReplyDeleteI don't see why 'dear Erich' has to be 20 years older than Biggles. He could well have been only about 5 years older - it doesn't take many years of wartime service to make someone experienced.
ReplyDeleteLook at the difference a few months makes to Biggles in 'Learns to Fly' and what Algy says about being a tough mouthful in 'The Rescue Flight'.
I suppose so, SA but he didn't strike me as being as young as that. Ok, not 20 years but more than 5. Whatever age he is, I think he still did well to climb that ivy in 'Looks Back."
ReplyDeleteI never really saw Erich as that much older than Biggles. After all, he was riding horses and jumping out of planes when Biggles first met him, so he can hardly have been that old!
ReplyDeleteI think the reason we sort of think that EVS is older is because he is such an intimidating character.