The comment-discussion we've had about whether or not Biggles' adventures are suitable for little boys (and girls), and where romance and swearing fit into the mold have left me wondering about the "goodness" of Biggles and his friends.
I've heard from an archaeologist how Biggles is often careless with things like ancient ruins (he takes treasure from long-gone civilizations, burns down a few things...the list really is endless).
And, as I've already commented in the comments, I sometimes find it disconcerting when Biggles shoots a crooks, kills him, and then declares to someone like Ginger that he's "not going to lose any sleep over that crook" or "won't be wasting any tears on that thug". For me, this is somewhat surprising considering that in WWI Biggles is portrayed as a sensitive sort of chap who is devastated by the horrific events of war. (If anything, our man Algy tends to be more immune to that sort of thing, even going so far as to sing when he goes out on patrol.)
There are a couple of instances in the series where Biggles breaks the law as a policeman (such as in Hits The Trail where he gets a locksmith to break and enter), and I wonder what Johns was thinking when he put those in? (And why the editors okay'd it, and why no one wrote in to complain?) Did the parents gloss over that part? Did the boys and girls reading the book realize that Biggles was only breaking the law under desperate circumstances, despite the fact that he was a POLICEMAN?
Do you have any Biggles the Baddie pet peeve moments where you were jumping up and down screaming, "WHAT ARE YOU THINKING, BIGGLES?" (This is what I usually do when I get a new Biggles book and three pages in, Biggles suggests that Algy stays at home and mans the phones.)
So anyway, share your pet peeve moments in the comments below!
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I think the incident which disturbed me the most featured in 'Flies South' where Biggles (and Algy!) loot the body of the old crone - witch-doctor - whatever she was.
ReplyDeleteShe may have been out to have them sacrificed - but to me it was still a distasteful episode - I can't imagine what W.E.J. was thinking to include it.
Biggles even went so far as to rip a bag of rubies from her belt....
NOT the behaviour I expect fom a hero or potential role -model.
'Flies South' is otherwise quite an enjoyable read, but when reading it I like to pretend that paragraph never happened.... (shakes head sadly)
I don't have any problem with Biggles saying "he's "not going to lose any sleep over that crook" etc. As far as he's concerned the crook brought it upon himself. Neither do I find it inconsistent with Biggles being a sensitive chap aobut war. In war, young men didn't have a choice - they were sent to fight whether they liked it or not and Biggles recognized that the enemy usually was a man fighting for his own country, the same as he was. What does upset me a little is the seemingly almost blasphemous raiding of treasure sites. But, put in context, he was only a product of his time.
ReplyDeleteBiggles wasn't bad, just not perfect.
I too was appalled when reading Flies South and seeing the snatching the jewels scene. It seemed so stupid and unnecessary, not to mention that Biggles has never really cared that much about money or treasure or whatnot anyway so why would he do that? (In Takes Charge when another character declares that he will drown with his expensive jewels Biggles is quick to point out that that would be silly, which it is).
ReplyDeleteBiggles' looting of other people's treasure/ancient civilizations makes me wonder if this was a common concept held by many at the time? I can understand the missions where Raymond sends Biggles out to recover British gold that has gone down with a ship or whatever, but for him to go out (essentially as a civilian) and just TAKE other people's stuff is horrible. I have no doubt that he turned the stuff over to a museum rather than pawning it, but still!
You've only to look at the way the tombs of Egypt were treated and the Aztec treasuresof South America to get an idea of what was considered the norm.It wasn't considered to be anybody's property, more finders keepers. So, yes, Soppy, it was a common concept held by many at the time. It's only in fairly recent times (post WWII perhaps) that attitudes have begun to change, and for the better.
ReplyDeleteThe episode in Flies South was not nice,though. In later years, of course, Biggles had seen a lot of trouble caused by gold and treasure etc., to want to turn his back on it.
Just ask any Greek about the Elgin Marbles to get an idea of old-time British attitudes to foreign treasures!
ReplyDeleteThere's an interview with Johns, I think from 1967, where he talks about how attitudes to criminals have changed - these days, he says, they're expected to be rehabilitated, whereas Johns says that his readers still like them 'to come to a sticky end'. Biggles hasn't changed, he says, his attitudes are the same as those of old.
Biggles was also a bit of an 'environmental menace' on occasions. (Though that also I suppose was 'of his time').
ReplyDeleteBurning down large tracts of rainforest (albeit accidentaly),dumping empty fuel barrels across the landscape without a thought, killing a king condor, ancient sacred cocodiles, giant squid unknown to science..... tut, tut, tut the list goes on....
I was also slightly upset that no-one tried to help the poor unfortunate seabirds struggling in the oil outside their secret base in Baltic. Yes, I know they were busy at the time, but the birds were very close to the shore and Smyth didn't have much to do....
It just struck me as one of the moments when Biggles and Co. failed to shine... : -(
Ah well, at least they didn't wipe out the dodos again - or did they?
Sorry, JJ, but war and saving seabirds don't go together. These days, of course, before they'd even got to the Baltic provision would have been made but the technology wasn't available then and quite frankly, with the Germans on the doorstep I can't blame them for not making the effort.
ReplyDeleteI've always considered Biggles to be a moral sort of bloke who didn't really care about money, which is why I was quite surprised to see that in "Takes Charge" he agrees to help Boris look for his family treasure on condition that Boris gives him a nice crown out of it (to be fair, I think in that instance he might have been more joking than anything). There are other instances as well, for example in Breaks The Silence when he wants half of the booty, or in Hits The Trail where he asks someone else to foot the bill, or in Flying Detective where he asks Raymond if there's a reward for getting the stolen loot back.
ReplyDeleteI do agree that one should keep an eye out for the bottom line, but somehow the fact that Biggles comes out and SAYS it upsets me. Why couldn't he get an agent chap to work out those sorts of things behind closed doors? It's much more dashing to have a hero going on adventures for adventures' sake, rather than one who wants the fun and risk, but also insists that all the beer is on someone else's tab....
I've always taken the 'crown' comment in 'Takes Charge' as something of a joke on Biggles' part.
ReplyDeleteBiggles was very much a product of his time. And FB is completely correct in observing that war and saving sea birds don't go together. I much prefer Biggles as he was portrayed (not perfect, but who would not compromise his ethics and moral beliefs) to some Sensitive New Age Bloke who, quite unbelievably, while being attacked by a King Condor on a narrow twisting path with a multi-thousand food precipice on the side would stop and put the attacker's welfare before his own, knowing that it could cost not only his own life but that of his friends as well.
Quite happily and cheerfully politically incorrect, but that doesn't mean I condone wanton cruelty to animals etc. - and nor, I believe, did Biggles.
Even bigger dilemma in a recent tropical book when he shot at a crocodile to make it let go of a deer it had by the leg. The deer then staggered off into the bush injured. You can just hear Bertie silently thinking that they should be having it for lunch.
ReplyDeleteMaybe they had the croc for lunch instead? Biggles and Algy did use to eat lizards in Flies Again, and that's just what a croc is, isn't it?
ReplyDeleteI've eaten croc and it tastes fishy. Not an experimetn I would like to repeat unless desperate.
ReplyDeleteI've eaten crocodile - Other half thought it tasted like chicken, so maybe it depends on where the croc was from? Ours was an Aussie croc (and no, I won't ever weep tears of blood over crocodiles - I'm no Steve Irwin!). I just remember being doubtful and deciding it was an interesting experiment but wouldn't eat it again if I had a choice.
ReplyDeleteHave also eaten kangaroo - but that was under protest - and I didn't like it. Too 'gamey' for my liking. But even worse was the thought that we were eating Skippy. Just can't cope with that.
But I doubt that Biggles and the boys would worry if they were on starvation rations in the Top End...waiting for Ginger to return to rescue them....
It was in South Africa that I tasted crocodile. In a hotel in the Drakensberg mountains. Goodness knows where it came from. I also had my first (and last) taste of snake. As for eating Roo, well, I've been considering it when I come Down Under. We have a park ranger for a friend and venison was always on the menu at their house, so I guess if I've eaten Bambi I can have a go at Skippy. I could always pretend I'm with the boys, lost miles from anywhere.
ReplyDeleteI've never eaten croc but I sort of imagine that it would taste like just fish really. Some people I know have eaten snake and didn't think too much of it.
ReplyDeleteI may be heartless but personally when eating something I don't usually think too much of the cuteness of what they "might have been", (if I did I wouldn't be able to eat beef or pork or chicken--i mean, when you come down to it every animal is cute or can be made cute)
I have eaten quite a variety of interesting animal insides though...don't know if that makes me a cannibal..?
ReplyDeleteOnly if you've tasted human flesh, Soppy! So I guess you're not.
ReplyDeleteFB - Hope you get to sample Aussie Bush Tucker when you're here. I've also caught and eaten honey ants (very yummie, actually) and even witchety grubs. I ate mine cooked, but one brave soul in our party ate his raw (s.h.u.d.d.e.r). They tasted like egg, and the daring bloke who swallowed it raw, said it tasted like runny poached egg. Yes, I've eaten a very small piece of snake, too. But that was under protest and I won't be doing it again. Not exactly objectionable - just that I knew what it was and as I have a real phobia about snakes, I just couldn't be over enthusiastic.
ReplyDeleteSoppy, I know it seems crazy to differentiate between various animals when I'll happily eat chicken, fish, lamb etc (although my adult daughter still refuses to eat lamb). But kangaroos are our national symbol - and it's just wrong!
I'm okay with eating most animals. Not sure about grubs, but now that you've said that they taste like egg, maybe I'd try it if I had the chance.
ReplyDeleteBet Biggles has had grubs....
We were lucky enough to have a lovely local lady take our group into the bush outside Alice Springs and show us the traditional bush tucker food that her people had lived off for millennia. Jolly hard work to keep digging up the honey ants and the witchety grubs :))) I love the bush and the outback - but I do like to buy my food at the butchers, the grocers and the fruit & vegie shop :)))
ReplyDeleteBet Biggles hasn't - unless he had them in a curry when young ;-)
ReplyDeleteHe prefers biscuits - though grubs might be better for his teeth.
I think all these biscuits they eat when on a mission are in fact, similar to something like a Jacob's Cracker. A substitute for bread.
ReplyDeleteI should hate to eat a dry cracker without butter :-(
ReplyDeleteNo wonder Biggles is always getting somebody to make tea - just to wash them down.
Certainly in 'Takes it Rough' they were carting around tins of butter. These were available in Army rations etc. And in 'Lost Sovereigns' they had canned butter so it's not so bad, SA.
ReplyDeleteNot so good if they are somewhere tropical - they'd be tins of melted butter! I think that by the later Air Police books, Biggles was less into roughing it anyway - he's always on about lunch or some other meal.
ReplyDeleteI know the feeling.
ReplyDeleteI don't understand about the butter. Apart from the melting wouldn't it go bad? especially since they were going places like deserts and whatnot.
ReplyDeleteI always thought they meant digestives when they said biscuits, because crackers can be pretty tasteless and dry (although I suppose they would keep quite well, being basically a form of cardboard).
Is "hard tack" a kind of cracker as well then?
The kind of rations the boys would have had were similar to the rations issued to the armed forces. They were packeted dried and tinned goods. Even though butter was in a tin it would have kept because of the canning process. Only when it was opened would it begin to go off. It was only a suggestion about the biscuits being crackers (no, they're not hard tack)but I remember from my time in the armed forces most of the biscuits we had were sort of oatmealy hard biscuits. These could be eaten as Biggles and co did, as bread, or
ReplyDeletemixed with hot milk (could be powdered or condensed) to make a form of porrige. Certainly the armed forces rations were designed so they could be eaten cold (not very pleasant but safer when lighting a fire would have given a location away.) As a matter of interest, canned food found at Scott's last base in the Antarctic was still safe to be eaten even ten years ago. Warmer temperatures however, have now corroded some of the tins.
Wow. Imagine eating out of a tin that had been made years and years and years ago.
ReplyDeleteAlmost like eating Woolly Mammoth...
I believe there are tins of whalemeat still around from WW2.
ReplyDeleteWhat!? In the back of your cupboard?
ReplyDeleteNot in mine, TS but in some militaria collection, no doubt. My mother tried whalemeat and wouldn't have it in the house after that.
ReplyDeleteWhat did whalemeat taste like, FB? Did she say?
ReplyDeleteLike eating rubber gloves, is how she described it. (And that would be the old-fashioned, heavy rubber gloves they had then, not the fairly neat ones we can buy today.)
ReplyDeleteAnd no, I don't know how she knew what rubber gloves tasted like. That's one question I never thought to ask.
ReplyDeleteWeird, I would have thought it would taste like fish or shark meat.
ReplyDeleteI have no idea, Soppy. That's what she said, anyway. But knowing my mum, she could have cooked it by boiling it for about four hours - just to make sure it was properly cooked, you understand.
ReplyDeleteAh. Yes, that might explain it. Wonder what they would taste like raw? Like normal sashimi?
ReplyDeleteTo be absolutely fair to Biggles and Algy when they take the bag of jewels in Flies South, their original intention was to check the body of the hag incase she was still alive, after which they noticed the jewels. And who wouldn't take a great big hulking bag of jewels when half of them had spilled across the sand? Also the jewels were being scavenged from the tombs (of what I think was implied to belong to the Cambyses' army) by the hag anyway so they weren't rightfully hers in the first place and they had historical value, which was one of the reasons they went on the voyage in the first place.
ReplyDeleteIf the jewels weren't obvious and they'd pawed over the hag for anything of worth I'd have a similar opinion as the rest of you. But instead the jewels had fallen from the bag she had on her and Biggles and Algy just grabbed the bag in the heat-of-the-moment, possibly not thinking in terms of 'oh this could make us a few pounds' but instead 'Look shiny things! Grab it!'
I know, it does make sense once you put it like that, although I wonder why they bothered to take time over the "Ooh, shiny things, grab it!" part as they were, if memory serves, in a big big hurry at the time. I would have thought them more likely to go, "leave it!"
ReplyDeleteWhat is slightly more upsetting is that wej, in writing these paragraphs, evidently thought that these actions were okay.
Soppy said: "What is slightly more upsetting is that wej, in writing these paragraphs, evidently thought that these actions were okay."
ReplyDeleteThe sad fact is Soppy, that it was okay at the time.
Absolutely. Biggles was very much a product to W E Johns' time and during that time if you saw a bag of jewels which was being carried by a nasty hag who had killed herself in an attempt to kill you, well you'd jolly well grab it (This is assuming you're as unphased and accustomed to death as Biggles and Algy were...). Obviously Biggles and Algy weren't in such a tremendous rush or they'd never have checked the hag's body for signs of life. I don't think Biggles/Algy necessarily behaved like a 'baddies'. It was just a natural human reaction to shiny, precious stones. I know I'd probably grab them were I Biggles or Algy (but then again, I am a New Zealander (A famous quote from a German in WW2 about New Zealand soldiers reads 'If Britain invades we shall loose our lives. If New Zealand invades, we shall loose our watches')).
ReplyDeleteAnother example of Biggles being a product of his time; some people called the books racist due to the use of terms like 'negro' and what have you. But as we know, Biggles was decent to anyone who was decent to him and his friends.
Did you know for the Dambusters movie Peter Jackson is going to help make, there was talk about changing the dog's name from 'Nigger' to 'Digger', because 'Nigger' is considered a nasty word now. Once again, it was simply a product of the time.
I'm actually mildly okay with Biggles' "racism", as no matter what name he referred to people by, he did at least treat them decently regardless of the color of their skin. That, I think is part of the reason I was so appalled at the hag scene. Could you imagine the stink Biggles would put up if someone shot him and stole his shiny cigarette case? He'd be hopping mad, and quite rightly so! Which is why I find it so puzzling that he would do the same to someone else. It may have been acceptable behavior at the time, but Biggles was always the one who was fair and saw the other person's point of view and so on.
ReplyDeleteI have a delightful image of Biggles hopping about in rage as someone makes off with his cigarette case. God help the person who took it. A niccotine-free Biggles I would imagine, it most certainly NOT a happy Biggles.
ReplyDeleteYes, well...usually lack of ciggies leads to brain damage for Biggles...notice who he decided to marry...
ReplyDelete